Hello, Mario Enzler. Welcome to our podcast.

Thank you very much, Bob for having me. Always a pleasure and an honor to be in your presence.

Well, Mario, you and I were in an airport about three months ago and I was uh checking my bags and you were waiting behind me and I didn't recognize you. And uh I was in a hurry. And then you said to me, I know you. And uh I said, you said, well, I've got to check in. Now, let's talk at the gate. And so we talked at the gate, exchanged emails. You knew that I was the editor of inside the Vatican magazine. You recognized me. And uh I know you now through reading your story as a Swiss guard from 1989 to 1993 when I was a young man in Rome myself just before I started inside the Vatican magazine. So to talk with you as a Swiss guard who worked with John Paul. The second is a wonderful experience inside the Vatican. And I'm honored to be on with you. And uh I wanted to talk to you about what that meant to you in your life. And then we're gonna talk about the Vatican. We're gonna talk about John Paul the second and we may even talk about the whole process of the church and its role in the world today, but that may be for another program.

Thank you very much, Robert. You are totally right. We were um at the airport, at the Fiumicino airport. I had uh just left the Vatican as a matter of fact, for a series of meeting that I was having. And uh I recognize you because I am a reader of inside the Vatican. And I think I've been reading and since you established it almost 30 years ago and I find that uh intriguing, especially because of its transparency and its accountability. OK, every single uh story that I read or article that you ask people to write, they are very accurate most of the time, if not all the time, they are very objective and not subjective. And uh I always, every time that uh after I left the Swiss Guards and I will come back to Rome for business or whatever, I will always make sure to go to ST Peter's Square in the reader in the little Cola Bob. That it is right after the ca the barracks of the Swiss Guard, right when you enter into the square right there on the right side because that was the place that I knew I will always find inside the Vatican. But anyway, Yes. And when I recognized you, I, I was quite thrilled, you know, I've been now uh reading all of your posts. Ok. And my 85 years old mother-in-law, she is always reminding me if for whatever reason I lose one of your letters. Mario, did you read the last one of Bob? What do you think about that? What do you think about that? So, you are keeping me up speed also with the help of my mother-in-law.

Well, mother-in-laws are always great.

Amen.

Amen. So Mario, um first of all, I want to take a look at a picture of you from the time when you became a Swiss Guard. And uh and also I want, I want to thank you for that very kind remark about the magazine. And if anyone would like to get inside the Vatican magazine, you can easily do so online at inside the vatican.com. But um this is you saluting in black and white. It must have been about 1989. So that's almost 35 years ago. Do you remember?

Yeah. So that, that picture was sent to me by the National Geographic. In other words, I was standing somewhere, right? And uh saluting and the National Geographic took the picture. And then I think it was about 10 years ago, I was at the house of a friend of mine in uh uh just outside of Philadelphia West Chester to be precise. And um he was showing me this um um National Geographic book that he had purchased, which was the, the Vatican, right? And at the certain point halfway down, there was a chapter about the Swiss Garden boom, swing up. There was this picture. And I thought, hey, that's me. I did look rly handsome, right? That at the time, Bob, that I always joke. At that time, I used to have a six pack versus today that I only carry a six pack when I come out of Trader Joe's. Right. And uh so when I saw that picture on the book, I then uh called or emailed the, the, the hotline of National Geographic and they were kind and they sent me a copy and uh I don't recall which event it was and where I was looking at the window behind, it seems to me it seems to me like inside San Damaso and the doors are the Floria window. So if you're looking at the Apostolic Palace where the elevator is, this could be the left wall, right? But it's a little hard to, to pictures, you can only imagine how many times I found myself in that position on a daily basis, right?

Ok. So you're, you're reconstructing that position by those two shadows of windows behind you and I'm sort of following you. It's so, oh, behind you. And to the right you're saying would be three steps up to the elevators that take presidents up to visit the Pope and this is the windows above that first floor. And you know, Mario, I was there in 1989 on the first of December as a young journalist in the corner of Cortile San Damaso, which would have been maybe 50 yards to the right of where you are in this photo. And and Mikhail Gorbachev arrived in a black limousine with his wife Raisa and then would have passed by you just to the right of you, I suppose to get on to the, to get onto that elevator to go up and meet John Paul the second in a world historical event that was marking the slow dissolution of the Soviet Union and then its complete dissolution. Two years later in 1991

I was there, I had just started my service, ok? And uh to me, I did not witness because I was still in the training uh part of the formation. And so I did not attend that event. But to me, few weeks later was my first encounter one on one with Saint Pope John Paul the second. OK. Which which happened basically like this. So I was inside the Apostolic palace, you know, and you're making sure that everything is OK. In other words, nobody walks by everything. It's tight and close and if somebody shows up, they are documented it and so on and so far and I was notified, you know, by my radio that Isolines was gonna walk by to return to the third floor coming from the sala it was on the first lodge and so close the door block the elevator telling the so is the only father coming by? So stop the elevator and I go up in the attention. Ok, Bob. And I was very nervous because at that point I only saw him from far and I had not interacted with him yet. Ok. So I hear him coming and uh I hear two steps, right? Meaning of two people, right? And so sure enough, I got up in the attention and would seem and at that time, Monsignor JVI is a private and personal secretary. So the two of them passed in front of me and I'm standing exactly like in the picture and Isolines stopped and so did JVI and then Isolines look me in the eye and I was still in the attention and he said to me in Italiano, but I'll tell you in les for our listeners, you must be a new one. Now, as a soldier, you are trained that you cannot talk until you are addressed, right? So the moment that he addressed me directly, looking me in my eyes, I came out of the attention and I went with my hand to shake his hand and I introduced myself and I really don't remember what I said in three seconds, maybe four seconds, probably my name. And uh how great I grateful I was to be there. And then Bob, I tried to take my hand back. In other words, let go of his hand but he didn't. So he kept my hand in his hand and then two or three seconds go by. And then he takes his left hand, Bob and he sandwiches my hand in between his hands and he looks at me and he says to me, well, Mario, thank you for coming to serve, who serves. And then he let go of my hand and him and Chic started walking away. That's the moment Bob, that I realized the dead man was special. I knew because of the way that he looked at me, the way that he held my hand, the tone of his voice, his posture, I knew that he was special. I had no idea about what that meant. And so I spent all of my time in service and even after try to understand what it was. And uh I am very proud today to say that uh John Paul the second transform my life allowing me to become a better Catholic, a better man, a better father, a better business person, a better teacher. And I always enjoy sharing stories and anecdotes. You know why Bob? Because a lot of today's youth, they don't know who saint Pope John Paul the second was right? A lot of the millennials they don't know. And so I travel across the United States giving talks to men conferences, youth conferences, parish missions sharing story so that I can generate an awareness. And hopefully people will then do some self learning and try to watch youtube videos and read some of these amazing masterpieces. And that's what's dear in my heart, try to generate this awareness in our youngest today.

So you then produced a book after you left the Swiss Guard, which dealt with everything you just said. I wrote.

Yes. So this is very uh makes me extremely proud because I wrote, I served a saint and it was uh published by Newman Guide. And uh my dear friend George Weigel wrote the introduction and he came out on May 1820 20 which means we were in the middle of the COVID nonsense and nobody celebrated it his 1/100 birthday. Uh Nothing. And so I was pleased and blessed that at least my humble and simple book sharing stories. OK? Of my time with him at least catch a glimpse. OK, of the celebration of his birthday, right? And so I did it just as I explained before to generate this awareness. And uh I'm gonna tell you a very quick anecdote during that time of COVID. After the book came out, I will never forget I was on a like we are doing right now on a EWTN show with uh to talk about the book, right? And uh they asked me what saint Pope John Paul the second would have thought of the COVID craziness, right? And uh I said, well, first of all, I cannot be 100% sure. But uh having spent so much time in his presence, I can guarantee you the same Pope John Paul. The second I was saying this to uh Dave Kneck was a man of closeness, not of distancing. Ok. So I I said to him, I had uh uh I, I think that his holiness would not be pushing everybody 6 ft away.

Yes. So this is, oh, this is a nice picture that

oh yeah, this was that I, I remember this. This was the two of us were in Castel Gandolfo. You know, Castel Gandolfo is the summer residence. And uh I was the team leader of the group that spent the summer there and then he will always uh come and you know, we will do a little pictures for the Swiss Guards uh memoir. OK. And uh this was September 92. This is vividly was September 92 at the end of the summer, right? And uh uh yeah, and I can tell that I was 10, right? Because of the sun. During the free time, we would go down to the Lago, you know Lago, to the Lake

Lago, Albano,

Lago, Albano, right? And Isolines loved to be in Castel Gandolfo. He loved that there. You will spend the entire summer. I don't know if you remember her. But um Isolines closest friend, female friend was Banda PDA. Right? And so Banda will come and spend the summer at Castel Gandolfo with her husband and usually her daughter and her Children. Right. So Isolines was basically surrounded by Vanda. Vanda Z as daughter, son in law and the two grandchildren. And for us, it was fascinating to see him interacting not just with Vanda, but also with the two grandchildren of Vanda. And he was very relax constantly uh laughing and, and, and, and, and joking with us. And uh my favorite, favorite times and memories were all of the time that I spent in Castel Gandolfo with him.

You know, this is something I didn't think about until just now. But I had a little boy Christopher in 1982. We came to Castle Gandolfo. We were friends with some Jesuits in the observatory, the speco of Vaticana. And we, the Jesuits have the rooms I think even above the Pope's

rooms. Correct. Correct at the top. Yes.

And so we went up there and visited and there was a television there and Christopher was trying to change the channel and he knocked the television over with a tremendous crash and he almost was crushed under the television and he broke, he broke it. I think it must have been in August of 1992 and we were there and uh we were very glad he wasn't hurt, but we, we were visiting there in that summer and we went out in Lago, Albano. So our paths crossed.

Now, did you know, perhaps, did you know, you know, at the Peola Vaticana, the Jesuit, the yet priest, but also brothers, a close friend of mine was brother Oliver. You remember him? He was uh yes, he was one and few times. I would say at least three times they took us up that, you know, they will allow us to go up to the cupola during the night, during the night. And to look into the telescope man was breathtaking, you know, for me was never seen anything like that, right? And to be out there usually at between nine and 10 pm and to look at the stars and the planets man that was phenomenal and they were so down and hurt and always generous and, and, and, and, and, and kind with us, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was Father Rich Boyle. I don't know if you remember

Father Rich Boy, he was the director. Yes. Correct.

Uh Well, no, there was a co a coin, there was coin was the director Rich Boy and he was uh he, he worked a lot in Tucson and he came to Rome for the they had a special summer school for Astrophysics physicists from college and graduate school every summer. Uh In any case, we were in Rome in those years and it was a transition from one period of John Paul's pontificate to another. He had, he had basically been focused on the Soviet Union and, and on the freedom of Poland his own country. And when things changed in 1991 he started to think about a mu a larger cultural battle, which is the culture of life and the culture of death, which he was fearful had been taking over Western culture. And then he started to be almost less appreciated in the West in the nineties than he had been in the eighties. I don't know if you, I don't know if you noticed that.

Well, he, how can I say he was a man for the truth all the time, right? He never stopped pursuing the truth even when it hurts, right? And then another little anecdote. So, yes, solids. We all know that, right? I've seen like Valez are coming into the Apostolic palace maybe four times, even five times, right? While I was there. Ok? And then yes, I didn't see uh Gorbachev coming in but I was there where he came, right? I witnessed um meetings in Castel Gandolfo in Incognito of Isolines with Ronald Reagan at least twice. Yes, at least twice. Right. I was there in 1991 when Bush's father. Ok, was the president and he came and uh I had to rescue his holiness in the Sala Clementina. You're the journalist. You were probably not there that when the John Paul the second and Bush came out of the bibliotheca and they were answering questions when the time was over. Everybody went and surrounded Bush and completely neglected Isolines. And so me and two other guards had to basically go around Isolines, embrace him, right? And try to open a space in between the journalists and some of the neck North American College seminary that would make us leave the Sala Clementina, right? But uh to me is uh the the the the anecdote that underlines what you just said, such as the, the, the the the passion for life, OK? And the seriousness of the value of life in his art was when Desert Storm started it. You remember it was 1991 right? When, when General Schwarzkopf launched the attack, OK. So I was the one that said to Isolines, the attack has started it and I'll tell you why because it was a Wednesday or if not a Wednesday, it was a day that there was an audience, Laa Paulo Sesto in the Paul the sixth hall. And when he came back, so we are talking 1 p.m. right before lunch when he came into the Apostolic Palace and he took the elevator and he came up into the apartment, ok? I was at the elevator, right? And while he arrived and he basically, and Jvi came in front of me and he went into the elevator, Jvi stood in front of me and I put the hand to block the elevator so that Jvi would go in and JVI asked me, Mario any news and I had just heard in my radio because, you know, the guards, they were talking that Schwartzkopf had just launched the attack. Right? And so I said to Monsignor Stanislao in Italiano, La Taco Eito, the attack has started it and he immediately, and Isolines was right there and he said, what did you say? And then JVI spoke to him in Polish. I don't speak Polish. I suspect he translated what I had just said and I saw his holiness put down, closing his eyes and he put his head down and his chin against his chest, right? Like something stabbed him like, like, like, like he got so such a huge pain because of that news, right? So I wanted to share this anecdote to say that uh he really believed in peace. You really respect the dignity of the human being, the value of life. He was, he was quite a man, Bob, quite a man.

Well, that's a wonderful anecdote and I appreciate all the anecdotes you have. And I want to go really probe to gain further insight into what it was to be a Swiss guard, how the Vatican functioned. And so I'm gonna go back to the first day you arrived. How, how do you recall your first day arriving in the Vatican from Switzerland?

Well, first of all, let me just um um uh tell you a little bit about, about my personal story, right? Very, very quickly. So I am a Swiss citizen. But I was born and raised in Italy because my dad used to work for a pharmaceutical company and then he was transferred to Milano and met my mom in the early sixties and they got married and I was born and raised in a small village, Bob that I'm gonna tell you the name and he's gonna knock your socks off. The name of the village is Soto Il Monte. I was born and raised in Soul Monte, which is the town where John the 23rd, born and raised, right? And so I always tell everybody this joke, which is actually true. Imagine my joy on April 27 2014 when Saint uh when Pope Francis on that day canonized the man that I was his bodyguard for four years and the man that I dated his niece, Saint Pope John the 23rd. Ok. Yes, I grew up in the small village of soul and in that village there were two families, the Ralli family and the BFI family, which is my mom's family, not related to Cardinal BFI of Bologna. Ok.

That's amazing. That's amazing. I, I visited Soto El Monte and I, and I visited uh Loris Capo Vila who lived somewhere else just that. But there's almost no town there. It's very tiny,

200 people at my time. We were the, the little Fraz, you know, suburbs of soil Monte, but it was one parish. Ok? Everybody would go there and uh I knew Don Loris obviously I was born after uh John the 23rd. Uh yeah, John the 23rd passed away and uh uh during my young age in soil Lores was not there yet because you know, he became the pre Latin Loreto. So I got to I saw him when he came back, right? And he was already old when I was a little kid and he passed away at the age of 100 and one, right? But he was, he was for me uh for the the few occasions that I interacted and had conversation with him, he always had my jaw fall down for one reason. One reason specifically because when I was in service under John Paul the second, he had Guido Gusau and Gian Paolo Gusau, the Gusau brothers, you probably don't remember them. But the Gusau brothers, they were from Veneto, OK? And the Gusau brother, they were the sari remember the people that they will take the Pope, OK? And then when Paul and so Gamp Paulo and Guido, they came from Veneto, Nela Gendarmerie at that time was called today vigilance, right? And then one became his personal aid, John Paulo Guo and Guido became then the personal aide of Paul the sixth, ok. Like you remember Angelo Gel instead he was the personal aide of John Paul the second, right? But anyway, so with Lori, we will always talk about the Gusau brothers at the end of the morning shift, um sneaking into the Swiss Guard Barack's kitchen for a glass of very cold Frascati as a little aperitivo. Right? And they will always carry, you know, the rosary that every pope gives to people that he needs. Right? So the the the Gusau brother will always have two or three of these rosary in their pockets. And so they will always give it to the guards so that the guards in return will give them the glass of Frascati white wine, right? But anyway, so let's go back to, to soul Monte. So

I could I say one thing Florence Capovilla was the personal secretary, John the 23rd, just for our listeners, I didn't want to leave that as a confusion. So he was, he was at his side as a young active monsignor from 58 to 1958 to 1963 when John John the 23rd died and then he went to Loretto and he finally went out and lived outside of so Monte where you were growing up. And uh he he's kind of the living memory of all the pontificate of John the 23rd because he lived through it. He was a young man and probably among his papers might still be discovered. Something interesting.

I I have no doubts about now. One, if I if I wanna just uh tell our listener. So Loris Capovilla, he was a priest of the Bergamo Diocese. So my diocese where Supreme Monte is, right? And the story is that he told me the story right at a certain point he in the fifties uh at the end of uh so World War Two was already done. So we are in the early fifties. OK. He was struggling a little bit with his fate. And so uh to the ski, that's the name of the bishop of Bergamo at that time, called his buddy Angelo Roncalli. That at that time was the Patriarca Di Venezia. He was the archbishop in Venice. And uh he told Angelo Cardinal Roncalli about this young priest that Tode Ski, he felt that he had huge potential, but he needed a spiritual father. And so Roncalli said, send them over. I'll see what I can do. And isn't this unique the fact that Lori Capovilla Stanislav Jvi Georg Schwein, they were all priests that when under somehow the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the job, so to speak, right? The, the office. OK. OK. Of the cardinal that then becomes a pope. And so they followed and they spend the rest of their life with the Holy Father. And so, and Laurie is the one that uh basically did like we saw when Benedict passed away when John Paul the second passed away, you know, he put the, the, the, the, the cloth on John the 23rd face, you know, before they close the, that's good. And he was quite a character. But anyway, so just going back. And uh so growing up in Bergamo and uh you know, Swiss father Italian mother, my mom had four boys. But fortunately my three brothers passed away in young, young, young age. And so I was raised as an only child, so to speak. And yes, I was raised as an only child, so to speak. And uh I was always a troublemaker. And so when uh when I finished school, you know, I had uh uh you know, when you get the Laura, as we say, in Italiano, you know, the diploma, uh I didn't really know what to do. And my dad suggested it that in order for me to maybe get some structure in my life. But I would join uh army, you know, the officer school. And uh because I was born in Italy, I had the Italian passport from a Swiss father. I had the Swiss passport, right? And so my dad said you should look at both of the options and see which one you value the most. And I looked into them and the Swiss boot camp was 17 weeks up in the Alps and in the Swiss Alps and the Italian one instead was 3038 weeks in the Dolomites. OK. So in the Trentino Alps, right? And I looked at them and I thought, well, 17 is both in the mountain. I love the mountain, but 17 is definitely less than 38 And so I told my dad I'll choose the Swiss army. And when I did that, Bob, I had to renounce my Italian citizenship. So I had to go to the Town Hall of Bergamo and sign documents that I was freely renouncing my citizenship only getting the Swiss one because at that time, that time, there were no rest reciprocity between Italy and Switzerland. So you could not keep two passport if you had served one army, right? And so I chose to serve the Swiss army and the Italian made me give up my passport, which is OK. My Italian, it is not in a piece of paper, it's in my hands, in my blood in the way that I express myself. And the reason why I always say this anecdote of me listening to my dad asking me to consider, to find structure in my life is because when I was up into the mountain, El Valle, OK. So the French speaking part, the ST Bernard Mountain, so to speak, OK, we were out there playing Rambos. OK? One day, one officer took me aside and he said, you know, Mario, I was looking at your resume, your CV. And uh you are a musician by trade. And uh uh they are looking in the elite Corp of the Swiss Guard for the next Swiss Guard Band conductor. And I think you qualify and you should seriously consider applying for. And I said, and I said, no Thank you. And, and the gentleman said, why? And I said, well, I don't picture myself dressed up as a clown standing still, ok, on the cobblestone or hanging on an ALA bar for endless hours inside ST Peter's Cathedral or on ST Peter's Square. No, thank you. And the gentleman said, but, you know, Mario, when you join the Swiss Guard, the first things that happens to you is that you acquire a noble title. So when he said, when he said that, Bob, I was very intrigued, you know, I was young, you know, 25 years old and intrigued. OK, I said a noble title. Wow, Prince Mario Enzler, Duke Mario Enzler. And the gentleman said, no, no, no, no, no. It's three Latin words. And you know, in Italy, you study Latin in kindergarten, right? And being an altar boy, you know, Latin and so on. And so far. So I said to the gentleman, please tell me the three Latin words. Defensor Libertas Ecclesia, that's the title that as a Swiss Guard you acquire and you will keep in perpetuity, defensor Libertas Ecclesia, protectors of the church's freedom. And when he said that, Bob, it, it really caught my attention, right? Because I thought who's trying to take the church's freedom away. But most of all, why? And so as a young 25 years old guy, you know, grew up in the Pianura Padana, the northern part of Italy between Bergamo and Milano, Don Luigi Giussani was a creature of mine, you know, and I was having a blast in the industrial Northern Italy found myself in the Alps. And from there, the Lord tapped my shoulder and said, come, come. And I went to Rome and there my life transformed. And while I was there and then I'll stop my monologue. I ran into this wonderful woman whose name was still is Julie an American citizen that uh had uh uh went to Franciscan University in Steubenville AO and then went to Rome to study Dogmatic theology at the Angelico. And uh I met that woman at a party at the US uh embassy. And uh we've been married now, 30 years, we have five Children and one grandchild and soon a second grandchild,

Mario, that's so good to hear this entire story. Uh defenders of the freedom of the church. The first thing I would say is I, I too feel that that was what I thought was my task. I realized that in the intellectual battles in the universities and in the media, there was a kind of a line that uh regarded the church as an impediment to human happiness and human freedom needed to be overcome. Put into the past, it was too restrictive, but I had found that it gave a great meaning and joy in life. The type of thing Don GSI talked about, I met John Da. Don Gsi one time went to one of his lectures in Rome in the late 19 eighties. And it was a sense that the church is the soul of the uh and the hope of the world. The the mystical body of Christ extended in time over 2000 years with all of her problems with all of her human miseries. Nevertheless, the hope of a great dignity for human beings, a great charity for the weak and the poor. And uh so a kind of love of the church and a desire to protect the church's freedom, recognizing that there were always going to be pressures. So in some way, I find myself feeling like one of your comrades.

I love what you just said because while I was in the Vatican and this may be we'll talk another time, right? I was blessed and again, Bob, I'm a nobody. OK. I uh I was blessed to also get to know and spend time with Mother Teresa, but also with blessed Alvaro Del Portillo. OK. And Donald Varro as I would call him, I always blame him because today I love single malt and cigars. And that's Donald Varro's fault.

Maybe you should, you should explain who he

is. 00 yes. So Donald Varro was Donald Varro was Joan Maria Esbar secretary. OK. He was an engineer by trade and then he became the prelate the boss, so to speak that the CEO of the Opus Day. OK. And uh and the Opus Day movement or Predator like they call it today. They have their HQ in Rome and many, many of the guards being included, never become, never became an opus day super numerary numa. But we will always enjoy going to the HQ listening to Donald Varro uh preaching, you know, on the book of Jose Maria the way, right? The VIC as we will call it in Germany and we will he come in, right? So we will go there and Don Varro will, we will say today, I am talking about Punto 505 101 and 502 right? There was one, there are 1000 points there, right? And while we were doing that, he will serve uh cigars oyo de Monterey. If somebody knows what that means, it's the Cadillac of the cigars and single malt, single malt Glenn leave. And that's where I learned that authentic men don't drink Malaghan but they drink and leave it. OK? But anyway, so the reason why I'm saying this is both Donald Varro S mother Teresa, but also John Paul the second while I was interacting with them, I was constantly reroute, you know, like the GPS that we have on our iphone that sometimes it tells us, turn left and we say no, I know that I gotta go straight. But if we listen to the GPS, we will avoid them stopping because there is an obstacle there that we didn't know. Right? So the GPS is rerouting us OK, I was constantly reroute by their words, their actions. OK. On rediscover my baptismal charisma. And that made me conscious that I've been incorporated into the church within its secular dimension. And every gift given is not given to me, to be for myself, but it is given to me for the good of the church. And so when you say you are my camera, Bob, I say welcome on board because today we have to remind people that no matter how much financial strength, intellectual strength, biological strength they have. If they forget the meaning of stewardship, if they forget of being stewards in the vineyard of the Lords. Well, they are not fulfilling entirely that baptismal commitments. And Saint Paul, John Paul, the second was a master in constantly reminding you to be humble servants. Something that, that Pope Benedict Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger picked up when he came out on the balcony the first day. And he said that he was called to be an humble servant in the vineyard of the Lord.

Yes. Well, you'll remind I was there that day. I heard him say that and it reminds me of what you just described of your 1989 I believe or early 19 91st meeting with John Paul the second when he took your hand, which you extended to him, then he held it and he said, as you said earlier, that he was glad to meet one of the servants of the servant. Thank

you to coming to serve. Who serves? Correct.

Yes. So that is the name really of the pope. And really it puts it in perspective as we, you know, debate who everything about the government of the church and the character of the Pope. But the essential thing is servus Serum day, the servant of the servants of God. So you were in the middle of that, you, you saw that character on the first day you met John Paul the second, the one who serves. And uh you just spoke again that you were serving for the freedom of the church. And I'm very appreciative of that. And I'm thinking however Benedict repeated that he was a humble servant in the vineyard of the Lord. That was April 19th, 2005. You'd gone away from the Vatican at that time, but having been there four years and standing at attention, you always carried the Vatican in you, right to this day. I know it. And uh you remember each morning and each night, each shadow each.

Now, I have a, let me tell you a little anecdote. Obviously, I met Cardinal Ratzinger many, many times, right? When I was as a guard and, and for every, every time I went back later, but this legal anecdote, I'm very proud because Cardinal Bernardine Gin, I don't know if you remember him. He was the first, he was the first African cardinal that came to the Vatican Paul the sixth called him, right? He was made Archbishop of Cotonou Benin at the age of 35. And and then he arrived in Rome as the secretario of the Cornu at that time, you know, Justiz Pace Justice and Peace was a council. Kuno was a council 10 years ago. They put them together, right? But uh he was living at the Collegio Urbana, you know, on top of the Gian NCO there, right? And then uh John Paul, the second made him in 1981 the Perfecto de Vesco bishop, OK? And he did that for three mandates 15 years. But here is the, here is the kick again, knocking. You had pull your socks up. Now, I'm gonna knock them down again. He confirmed me in the seventies. Now you're gonna say, how the heck is that possible? Very simple. The pastor of the near village to Soul Monte, that village called Verdel Lo and establish a relationship with a nun from Benin. And uh he wanted to uh do confirmation on a day that our bishop at that time in Bergamo couldn't come. And the bishop said, I'll delegate the vicar general to come. But that priest who passed away, shared this with the nun. And the nun said, oh, I'll ask my cousin Cardinal Bernardine Gin if he can come up from Roma. And so that was 1970 nine when I was confirmed and Gin had made cardinal in 1977 with Ratzinger Ratzinger, Gin Benelli, remember Benelli from Florence and Chappy. Chappy. There was the PPP theologian, the Dominican that Dan was, he was followed by co after OK, that

was the, that was the last uh cardinal uh consider history of. And he made just four and they were very important for one of them became the leading theologian and then the next Pope Benedict and then he and the other was the leading African for the next 20 years in the car. And then Chapi was a theologian and then Benelli Benelli might have been intended for some higher post as well. But he he he he needed, he then died early in the 19 eighties. I think just we've been talking about this on another podcast. Benelli passed away in his early sixties just as he was about to be recalled to Rome by John Paul the second from Florence.

Well, Benelli and Siri, you know, we can go on and on and on and on. Benelli. Siri first conclave of John Paul, 1st, 2nd conclave of John Paul the second Benelli Siri. Why are we,

why are you bringing up Siri and Benelli and the two conclaves?

Because those were the names that everybody always taught that they weren't the papa, right? But uh in a, in a in, in neither, you know, there is the debt to Italiano, Kent papa ehe Cardinale who enters as a Pope will come out as a cardinale and we saw that even recently with scholar, went in and then came out as cardinal scholar. So Benelli and Siri for Italian of my generation, you know, they were uh the the the Cardinali, you know that they carried the chari, right? Everybody was intimidated by Cardinal Siri if the Genova, you know, but anyway, my anecdote now, I don't want to constantly lose track. So after the funeral on uh two on April 2nd, 2005, I was in Rome with Gin that had come up from Benin. So Cardinal Gin was the dean of the cardinals, right? And when he turned 80 in 2002, Bob, he asked John Paul the second if he could be dismissed because he wanted to go back to Africa. And so John Paul the second said yes. And the vice dean was Ratzinger and Ratzinger became the dean of the College of Cardinals. What Cardinal re is today for Francis, right? And so Benin, sorry, Gin comes from Benin for the funerals and we are in contact and he says, come let's have lunch together and this was the day before the conclave was about to start. I went and Cantin stayed at the pre seminario inside next to the Domo, Santa Marta, the yellow building. He was staying there, sleeping there. And so I went in to have a meal with him there and uh you know, we are eating, laughing, I'm showing him all the pictures he baptized all of my Children. Ok. He came to my house in Switzer. We became very close friends, right? He was my spiritual father. And at the end we were having Can Tucci and Vin Santo. You know, the Cantu those cookies that are a little tough with nuts inside. And the Vin Santo is that liquor, sweet wine. And you're supposed to dip the cookies in, right? While we are doing this, the doors open and it's Cardinal Ratzinger and Cardinal Ratzinger did not know that I was there. And so he, you know how timid he was right? He said, oh, I mean name Sammy si I'm sorry, your min s I'll come back and Gin. No, Yenny come. And so ra comes in and he sits at this round table with me, Gin to my left and he sits to my right and the table cloth, Bob is the typical plastic Italian table cloth with square that are green and white. You know what I'm talking about it? The typical Italian table cloth, right? And Gin says to Ratzinger Brain, the biscotti get some cookies, right? And his eminence was so shy that, you know, he took a cookie and he didn't want to deep it and he broke it and he Benedict uh Rat uh sorry, Canine tells Ratzinger, don't you remember Mario? He was a Swiss guard and you know, and Ratzinger, he is just being polite. He doesn't remember. So after two or maybe three or four minutes. Ratzinger says, ok, Emina, I will um ok, Emine Enza, I will call you uh later this afternoon and we will make sure that you can and I can talk right. And as soon as he left, I looked at Cardinal Gin and I said, did I just had a cano with the next Pope and, and, and he looked at me and he grabbed my hand on the table and he did this and he said in Italiano, I have to say it in Italiano to say, you know fo you, I, I don't know you say f in English, but you are clever to say you are very clever. Sure enough, two days later, Ratzinger came out as Pope

Pope Benedict. But Mario, that's another wonderful story, an inside story, a story of two days before the election in 2005 where you were with the leading African cardinal and Cardinal Ratzinger comes in and they, they expected to talk to each other. But you were sitting there in the middle and uh you, you have a little bit of a cookie with the next, with the next vote. Yes. And two days later he's elected. So that would have been April 17th. He was elected on the 19th. You were right in the, in a sense you were right in the conclave or on the the vigil of the conclave. But 11 thing comes back to my memory and we are just a few minutes now from ending this first conversation, and I'm going to raise an issue here that does become very important for the next, really for the next 15 years, uh almost the next 20 years, which is the issue of what he said when he became Pope and was inaugurated uh five days later on the 24th of April in 2005. And he said a beautiful homily saying, the pallium of Peter represents the good shepherd. And we carry on our shoulders the way. We also carry the sheep and we are loyal to carry the sheep that are lost and in danger. And then he said, we receive the ring of the good fishermen of the fisher of men. And we, we received the fisherman's ring when we become Pope. And he said at the end of that, he said, I also have a special request to everyone here and I was there in, in the, in Saint Peter's Square. He said, please pray for me that I will not flee for fear of the wolves. Do you remember

that? I do remember that very clearly.

And then in 2009, he takes off that uh pallium and leaves it at the tomb of Saint Celestine in Aquila. And then in 2013, on February 11th without any warning at all, publicly, still carrying out all his functions, not yet in any type of hospital or any type of incapacity. He says, suddenly I'm going to resign and then he goes out to your beloved Castel Gandolfo on the 28th of February ends his Papacy for the first time in almost 700 years. We now are used to it after 10 years of thinking of a resigned pope. And it's sort of almost becoming possible to think of for other Popes. But at that time, it was a total shock. Correct,

total shock. It was a total shock. I still, you know, depend how I wake up in the morning. You know, I was reading Cardinal Muller and I think we are almost at the end of the hour. And uh um I was reading Cardinal Muller's interview the other day again, like a pope should stay until the end, right? And uh it's, it's, it's hard. I, I understand from a human point, you know what I'm saying? From a human point. I understand why Cardinal Ratzinger at that time, Pope Benedict the 16 stepped down. But, and I'm gonna conclude this beautiful conversation and maybe we'll pick it up. I think that Pope Ratzinger got afraid and it should not have been afraid because one day in the Apostolic palace, I found myself with the only father coming by, you know, the usually story and the only father stops to exchange a few words with us. OK, in that case, with just me and I took the courage and I said, your holiness, can I ask you a question. And uh you know, I spoke Italiano as mother tongue, right?

So you're talking now years before with John Paul the second

on the, no, no during my service during my service. So I, you know, he passed by on the Tal Loja and I'm right there and you know, you by now, you know, me a little bit, Bob. I was not a phlegmatic melancholic Swiss guard. I was very active and because, you know, my mother tongue Italiano, it was easy for me to communicate with everybody and so on. And so far, and I asked him this question after he said, go ahead, your holiness. You always say that we cannot be afraid,

be afraid.

But how can I not be afraid? And he looked at me and he did this Mario. That's an easy answer. You can never be afraid because God is always one day ahead of you and he walked away. So, you know, you see my point now, right? My point is our fate is a huge mystery. But uh let's be courageous till the end, right? Let's not be cowards. Let's not aim for tolerance because then automatically we become mediocre and we are made for greatness, we are made for holiness. We have to try as hard as we can to get to heaven. Let's hope that some of the people that uh found our conversation today, loving will work hard to spread the good news so that any many many, many, many people will be able to get to heaven.

Thank you, Mario. We'll continue this conversation in the next episode. Thank you so much. God bless you. Thank you.